Doesn't anyone grieve anymore or do they just fucking sue someone?

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COOL ART
MissB Haven's Hand Crafted Jewellry
METAL FLAKES

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[ 22 August 2001: Message edited by: Pneumatic Fingers ]

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[ 22 August 2001: Message edited by: Slayerkane ]

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The kids clearly stated they were acting out what they heard on the Slayer song.

Don't you think that we as a community should be working together to make sure the influences we give the children of our community are of a stable nature.

No parent can watch a child 24/7 365

Any parent wants to direct their children to the best things in life, the best influences.

I think Slayer music sucks to begin with, but that's another topic all together.

-Pangier

[ 22 August 2001: Message edited by: Pangier ]

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Serving all of your low ping gaming needs:
http://www.chicagolanparty.com/

quote:

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But Doug Odom, an investigator in the San Luis Obispo district attorney's office who worked on the case from its start, offers another, more disturbing theory. ''Basically, I think they're evil little psychopaths,''

---

While I disagree with the idea of executing people who were minors when they comitted their crimes, I think the above quote sums it up. People don't commit murder because of music they hear or books they read. They do it for other reasons, such as they're psycohpaths (in which case they don't need any particular external reason).

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If you grew up around drugs, you were more likely to do drugs. If you grew up around people who swore a lot, you learned to swear too.

Don't give me this crap about how we're not responsible for the people we influence. I'm not buying it.

Lets take it a step further. Would you let your children hang with people who have low morals and are involved with illegal conduct most of their lives. Answer me that..

I mean no disrespect here, but give me a break JVK, what kind of crap are you reading that convinced you that influences mean nothing.

-Pangier

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Serving all of your low ping gaming needs:
http://www.chicagolanparty.com/

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I listen to Slayer, but I had a normal upbringing, I haven't killed...Yet

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quote:

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Originally posted by Pangier:
I think people should be responsible for the actions they do and how they influence people.

The kids clearly stated they were acting out what they heard on the Slayer song.

Don't you think that we as a community should be working together to make sure the influences we give the children of our community are of a stable nature.

No parent can watch a child 24/7 365

Any parent wants to direct their children to the best things in life, the best influences.

I think Slayer music sucks to begin with, but that's another topic all together.

-Pangier

[ 22 August 2001: Message edited by: Pangier ]

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Go back to communism you less than intelligent bastard. People kill people, music does not.

It's because of people like you this case is even happening.

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"Biting the BITCH on the back of the beast, buring desert plains..."

Nightcrawler, Thanks for your honest input. I do see your point about passing all the blame on “just” songs or “just” guns etc.. My main issue is that all of this is a contribution and should share in the blame.

If a person gives drugs to a child, they didn’t shove it down their throat, but you know what, If that child takes the drugs, I believe the person that gave the drugs to the child is partially responsible.

My point is that Influences are all around us and I believe we should be just as responsible for how we influence people as our own personal actions and decisions that affect our lives.

You're absolutely right, we must give our children all the right tools to make the right decisions. It's just that much harder of a fight if we're conflicting with other influences in the world. Why don’t we all have a common goal of making the world better for children?

And to answer your question, I am not a parent by blood, but I raised a beautiful little girl from birth that is now 10 years old.

-Pangier

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Serving all of your low ping gaming needs:
http://www.chicagolanparty.com/

I do all of these things to one degree or another. Are my parents to blame? I don't really think so - maybe they pushed the "good living" thing a little too hard - and on that degree they hold themselves responsible - too responsible IMO. Did listening to Metallica, Slayer, Judas Priest, Ozzy, Sabbath, Iron Maiden, Motley Crue, Van Halen, etc make me do these things? No. I was a kid - I explored and experimented. I made the choices. I have paid the price for the choices at times. I personally think that the world is going to shit because western civilization has found a way to make personal accountability extinct.

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COOL ART
MissB Haven's Hand Crafted Jewellry
METAL FLAKES

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I have read every Stephen King novel ever pulished and I never thought about killing anyone. Ok maybe once, but I got really stoned and passed out . Next thing you know they will be going after him for a few bucks!!!

With all the evil shit I listen to, I should be Charlie Manson!!! Lords knows I was always smoking pot when I was listening to Reign In Blood. I should have killed half of NJ by now. It all boils down to the fact that these guys all have a coupla screws loose! The drugs didn't help the situation either.

I want to ask you all a question. When was the last time you saw a commercial for Slayer's next album on TV? When you go to your local record store, do you see any Slayer posters? How do you know when the next Slayer album is coming out? I use to get all my info from metal magazines. Slayer as we all know aren't mainstream marketable. The only way we get any Slayer info is by word of mouth and [insert name of your favorite Metal magazine]. Of course we can't forget our new friend the internet! I don't see how they can blame the record company. You don't see Slayer ads plastered all over the place or on Nickaloden.

There defense is weak! But because of all the bullshit that has happened over the past 10 years, I can see a jury siding with plaintiff. Columbia is going to be shelling out some dead presidents.

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Pangier, while I respect your opinion, I must disagree with you. I understand why you would feel that a band should be responsible for the influences they send out to kids but ultimately it is the parents responsibility to know what is influencing thier children. It would be like blaming Budweiser because a 15 year old drank themselves to death. Or Remington because a 6 year old got ahold of Daddy's gun.

Unfortunately in this day and age it's more popular to have the government pass laws to make industry more responsible (ie. music warnings, TV and video game ratings) thus making parents less responsible.

When you make a decision to become a parent, you must realize that the ultimate responsibility for the safety and welfare of that child begins and ends with you.

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quote:

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Originally posted by White Witch:
Pangier, while I respect your opinion, I must disagree with you. I understand why you would feel that a band should be responsible for the influences they send out to kids but ultimately it is the parents responsibility to know what is influencing thier children. It would be like blaming Budweiser because a 15 year old drank themselves to death. Or Remington because a 6 year old got ahold of Daddy's gun.

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Hmm.. Under your conditions, Charles Manson was not responsible for the influences he had been on the "Manson Family". And remember, these were not little kids he was influencing.

-Pangier

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Serving all of your low ping gaming needs:
http://www.chicagolanparty.com/

quote:

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Originally posted by Pangier:

Hmm.. Under your conditions, Charles Manson was not responsible for the influences he had been on the "Manson Family". And remember, these were not little kids he was influencing.

-Pangier

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Allright Pangier, lets be fair about this. The "Manson Family" were all drug addicts and were cohearced while under the influence. I under any circumstances do not believe that Charlie mentally guided those peole through their actions. Like you said, they were all concenting adults, they simply made horribly wrong decisions.

quote:

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If a person gives drugs to a child, they didn’t shove it down their throat, but you know what, If that child takes the drugs, I believe the person that gave the drugs to the child is partially responsible.

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Of course there should be some blame on him, the bastard has no right to give drugs to little kids. But, once again, the ultimate responsibility falls on the parents, if that little kid had been taught at home to never ever accept anything from strangers or to never do drugs because they are bad for you, chances are he or she would not do them and bring the episode up to their parents so actions could be taken. this is what I teach my children.

quote:

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And to answer your question, I am not a parent by blood, but I raised a beautiful little girl from birth that is now 10 years old.

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well then, you know these things too. It is commendable to raise someone elses child as your own, I salute you.

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Nightcrawler, As many people on this board, I really like your personality. I admire the closeness of your family. You’ve always displayed a very commendable and respectable demeanor in your posts. I appreciate your replies to this thread. I can tell that you do put time into them. So please don’t take this the wrong way. I don’t mean for this to sound condescending in any way. I’m just very curious about this situation and way of thinking.

Why is it that people like yourselves claim to be so open minded and yet you can’t get away from what society keeps telling you? Many of the people on this board often repeat what they hear without really thinking about it in depth. Society keeps telling us that you may do anything you want as long as it does not affect others.

Most people don’t want to get involved. “If it’s not affecting me, who cares” right? Recently we’ve got policemen on TV telling women to yell “Fire!” if they are being raped rather than “Rape!”. The reasoning is because people don’t want to get involved unless they themselves are in danger. Yelling “Rape!” often caused people in the city to close their blinds and ignore the situation. Yelling “Fire!” on the other hand would get them to look out to see if they are in danger or if any of their stuff was burning. Sad huh?.

I believe we should get more involved and care about what goes on in society. I think I’ve proven to you that what we do DOES affect others. The past thread discussion above would say that we seem to agree that people do influence each other in many ways.

Writing a song about killing virgin to please Satan is not that far a jump from telling someone to do it. It’s actually frighteningly close. If we can hold Charles Manson responsible, why not others who influence our children? Is it because of the lack of direct connection of them being in the same room having direct contact?

Please fight the urge to think the same as you’ve always believed just because it’s what you always have been taught or heard from others. Think this out because it really deserves an honest answer from your heart. Decide on situation because of what you know about it rather than what everyone else tends to think and say around you.

With that, let me expand upon this; We’re not just talking about someone in a room telling someone to kill someone, we’re talking about something these kids are hearing over and over again in a song. Look at this correlation; We often see people using meditation tapes which have phrases like “I am like a rock, I will be the best I can be, today is the day I take a hold of my destiny” etc. repeated over and over on them. These tapes are used to “program” people/adults to be stronger/better people. It is Scientific fact that this works to program people if they listen to them enough. Most people are strong enough to realize reality from fantasy when it comes to their acting out on their thoughts. Are our children? Are we as adults immune? – I think not.

Now realize the words these kids were listening to:

quote:

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Altar of Sacrifice

..High priest awaiting dagger in hand
Spilling the pure virgin blood
Satan's slaughter, ceremonial death
Answer his every command..

..A gift of powers disposed upon you
Use them when you feel the need
Master the forces and powers of Satan
Controlling the creature's instinct
Drawn to the castles that float in the sky
Learn to resist the temptation
Watching the angels sift through the heavens
Endlessly searching for salvation

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The song clearly states that a sacrifice of a virgin will give immortal riches. Fantasy or not, this is what the kids (in the court case) heard in the song.

My question is this: Is this freedom to use this context without consequence a worthy trade off for the problems it creates? Sure it just affects a family here and there. You’d all probably think more firmly about this if the child killed was a relative of yours.

And realize that these tragedies of death are only the situations that we hear about. Many others go unreported or acknowledged by the press. These situations affect many more people than we can see. And just because a child does not kill does not mean that he was not affected by what he has experienced through music.

I know I’ve got a lot of you thinking. It’d be so easy to just discount what I said and go on with your lives. (Heck, it's a lot easier than going against the grain like I am). But Just realize that if you’re wrestling with this issue, that’s ok. I did wrestle with it myself and still do from time to time. I sometimes wonder why I would listen to some songs when my niece and nephew are in the car. I want to be a good influence on them. Sometimes I fail.

When I was growing up in the 80’s I listened to a lot of Judas Priest, Ozzy, Van Halen, Scorpions, Iron Maiden.. Well the whole gambit of music of that day and age. I still listen to a lot of it along with Rob’s new stuff (Though I stay away from new priest ). BTW:That’s why I’m here.

Although I never killed anyone I know I dove into things I would never have because of the influence my music had on me. I never got into Slayer, and that’s a good thing too. Although I feel I am a stable adult today. When I was younger, I was not. Who knows what would have happened if I listened to stories of virgin sacrifice. I was already collecting skulls of road kills and had a whole process of boiling the bones in a big pot on the backyard BBQ grill. Although I don’t do anything of that sort now-a-days, those actions were on account of albums with skulls on them and me wanting people to freak out when they saw my collection. I’m sure some of you think those actions were quite off base. Then again, I’ll bet some of you don’t.

My parents just thought I had a fascination of science and skeletons. I was pretty messed up. Although I had a good close relationship with my family/parents. I never did drugs, drank or smoked, I still was warped in some areas of my life. I had a very good middle class upbringing in the rich suburbs of Chicago. The music I listened to DID influence me. You’d all be lying to yourselves if you said that the music you listened to didn’t influence you.

People DO influence people and people should be held accountable for who they influence.

I’ve personally had enough of this theory that people are not affected by others or parents should be the ONLY ones accountable for their children’s actions. Everyone should be held accountable. The parents have a big part of that but EVERYONE means EVERYONE.

Please do not mistake this for me saying that parents are not to blame. That is NOT what I am saying. In the gambit of society, we as a community ARE responsible for what we do and how we influence people. We’re just not HELD acountable for those actions - That’s the sad part.

Parents need help to raise their chldren. We should all be working towards a unified goal right?

I can tell you that this belief is my own because I have wrestled with it inside my head. I want be a positive influence on everyone around me – including adults. I am only asking that you all think deeply about this and not take the role of a puppet quoting something you heard over and over from others over the years. That theory and way of life is a trap. People that don’t think on their own are condemned to be puppets.

One man can change a world. I’d like you to consider my viewpoint. It makes more sense if you really look at the reality of it. My view on this situation is so very crystal clear to me. Again, All I ask is that you fight the urge to think the same as you’ve always believed just because it’s what you always have been taught or heard from others. Think this out because it really deserves an honest answer from your heart. Decide on what you know about this situation rather than what everyone else tends to think and say. It only takes a few to pass on the message.

Fair enough?

-Pangier

[ 24 August 2001: Message edited by: Pangier ]

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Serving all of your low ping gaming needs:
http://www.chicagolanparty.com/

I don't believe that rules and laws are what will save us from ourselves. In fact, I think they only make the problems more complex, and serve as a distraction from what is really important. Self governance is the key. Until every single person can do (or better yet, is 'capable' of doing) things for the betterment of this world without having been told to do so, without having been given a list of things 'not' to do, without being given a lecture, without being given a list to follow, or even pointed the way, etc.. the problems will continue. And people will continue to bicker over ethics, morals, laws, personal liberty, responsibility, etc...

For now, there has to be a governing body called the government that dishes out in nice little bite size pieces, the laws, regulations, freedoms, etc.. The laws that this governing body comes up with, seems to cover all the bases, yet each new day's newspaper tells another story. There is also a charge for this service of course, unless you are into tax evasion.

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Sad Wings that heaven sent wipes out in rage
All Guns, All guns Blazing !!

Once you find a song as being solely responsible for a death, then what do we do? Where is the line drawn? Is the record company responsible for signing Slayer and producing the album? Are the bands that influenced Slayer responsible too? Are the drum, guitar and microphone manufacturers that made the instruments used to record the song now held responsible? Are the clubs and arenas that hosted Slayer concerts during the 80's now responsible for this girl's death? The stores that sold the album, clearly they are responsible, right? The magazines and authors that wrote about Slayer, the T-shirt makers, the guy who drew the album cover and on and on and on, are they all accountable for this girl's death? It sounds extreme and absurd, and that's mostly because it is.

Once you find any song as being the sole, motivating factor for a murder you suddenly have millions upon millions of texts, books, tapes, movies, recordings etc. that have to be censored or removed entirely. Suddenly expression becomes very muted and the laws and beliefs that our country were founded on become meaningless. You stated yourself that you enjoyed Maiden, Priest, Ozzy, etc. well, there wouldn't be any of that. This message board would have to be removed too, because I've seen and read things on boards like this one with stuff as bad or worse than what was in that Slayer song.

In a world filled with potential dangers, the best we can do as people is prepare our youngsters with knowledge and understanding and, most importantly, love and respect. The majority of the problem with troubled teens today is that they don't respect their parents. And that's mostly because those parents don't give a damn about their kids, except when it's too late. And that is the saddest thing of all.

Yes, your argument is very correct "people influence people." And the biggest influence comes from the family, because it's the first one we get.

[ 24 August 2001: Message edited by: Pneumatic Fingers ]

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quote:

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Sad Wings wrote:
However, there is a larger (currently very out of reach) aspect that involves what you mentioned. You ask "Why don’t we all have a common goal of making the world better for children?". Very simple. It is far beyond our capabilities

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I never say never Again, One man CAN change the world. It's been done before. All it takes is a new perspective. Time will finally bring us to the point where we have to do something to control this. Necessity is the mother of all invention. If things go as they have been, this change will become necessity.

quote:

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Sad Wings wrote:
Self governance is the key

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I strongly disagree, We've been trying self-governance all along and the only thing that has worked is accountability.

quote:

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Pneumatic Fingers wrote:
Once you find a song as being solely responsible for a death, then what do we do?

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I never said that any ONE source should be responsible for a murder.

If freedom of speech does not allow one to yell "fire" in a crowded theatre, why can't it also be said that you're not allowed to encourage people to murder?

If you're present while a murder is done and you do not participate in any way, you are still an accomplice. Governed by your actions (or lack there of).

It's not such a far jump. Follow my lead.

-Pangier

[ 24 August 2001: Message edited by: Pangier ]

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Serving all of your low ping gaming needs:
http://www.chicagolanparty.com/

quote:

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One man can change the world. It's been done before.

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As a leader, or an example, or even an orginator of a prespective, yes, entirely possible. However, due to the nature of the problem, it will have to be faced as an entire society.

quote:

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All it takes in a perspective. Time will finally bring us to the point where we have to do something to control this. Necessity is the mother of all invention. If things go as they have been. This change will become necessity.

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Indeed.

quote:

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I strongly disagree, We've been trying self-governance all along and the only thing that has worked is accountability.

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Oh yes, given the current level of development in humanity, I agree, self governance is not anywhere near being 'currently' possible. I also don't foresee this happening any time soon. However, you've said it yourself, never say never. Accountability is just an interim solution, 'and', it is not very effective. Just read your daily newspaper. Murder is a very accountable offense, yet the numbers seem to rack up quite well anyway. Necessity of invention will apply here.

-----------------------------
Sad Wings that heaven sent wipes out in rage
All Guns, All guns Blazing !!

quote:

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Originally posted by Pangier:

why can't it also be said that you're not allowed to encourage people to murder?

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So a song about a virgin sacrifice encourages murder? Get ready to ban or abolish a great deal of the world's texts then. And whatever you do, don't read the Old Testament. A song about somebody who cheats on their wife encourages somebody to go out and commit adultery? Therefore it's the songwriters fault and not the people who committed adultery. A song about stealing or running away from home can't be allowed? I guess listening to "Breaking the Law" now becomes illegal.

The point I was trying to make is that once one song gets singled out, either as the sole reason or partial reason even, then you can easily find influences/blame for everything that goes on in the world. Cookie monster goes ballistic and eats tons of cookies on Sesame Street. So all parents of overweight children should sue the Children's Television workshop because Cookie Monster is a big influence? Like I asked previously, where do we draw the line?

After you make the assumption that Slayer encouraged the murder, then you can't stop there. All of these other things must be held accountable in some form or other.

[ 24 August 2001: Message edited by: Pneumatic Fingers ]

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The children that commit these atrocious acts are mentally or emotionally unbalanced to begin with. Millions of kids listen to the exact same lyrics and lead normal lives and grow into responsible adults. Which I consider myself one of. You cannot censor a medium that reaches millions because of the actions of a few.

I did exstensive research on this subject and I can tell you that studies show that heavy metal music does not cause children to commit acts of violence but listening to heavy metal is an indicator that a child may become violent. It's a symptom, not a cause. So censoring the music is not going to stop the violence but it will prevent the millions of people who use it as a cathartic release.

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I realize the world as we know it is going right down the perverbial toilet. And society is has gone haywire! I really do wish things were different and that we didnt have to arm our children with as much amunition as we do, but Im afraid its just not going to change. As a matter of fact, Im afraid its going to get worse! For the ideas and perspective you talk about to work we would all have to collectively believe and follow the same plan. Unfortunately everyone has a hidden agenda. We all have different perspectives about how things should be. Granted, I think everyone wants the world to be a better place, but in many many different ways.

I will agree that the world around us influences us to a certain degree every day. How could it not? But I do believe that the human brain is capable of blocking out anything that it wants. I am a firm beleiver in mind over matter. I cant really tell you if this is an ideal that I have formed on my own or if it was instilled in me as a child by the folks who raised me. But I would like to beleive that it is my own. You raised a good point about following others opinions and ideals. And to some degree I believe we are all guilty of that in one way or another. From wanting what we see on TV to being influenced by our friends to do something we probably shouldnt have done. Its part of life, part of a life long learning experience. Learning what is right or wrong through trial and error. But, I beleive we all have it in us to just say no! LOL, I know that sounds funny, and we all have heard it a thousand times but its absolutly true! we have the power to control our own destiny. If we let negative influence into our lives its because we want it there. Plain and simple.

Im not going to try to get all patriotic here but this country was founded on freedom. and we have so many more rights and privaliges than many other countries. One of the most important rights we have is freedom of speech. While we have pushed the boundries of this right for hundreds of years, it is still in tact. Beleive me, I think the lyrics of the Slayer song in question are indeed corrupt and just plain appauling. But there are warning labels on CD's that warn of explicit language and themes. Unfortunatly Slayer has every right under our constitution to express themselves through their music. That doesnt mean we have to buy it!! The parents of these children did not have to let the sort of thing into their house. While I dont believe in cencorship in society, I am all for cencorship in the home. I pick and choose what my children listen to as well as what I listen to. I have listened to Metal my entire life and My boys have listened to what I listened to only because it was always being played by me! But the music I listen to, Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, etc, didnt have hate lyrics that music today has. My point is, that if those parents would have thought about what their kids were listening to, and cencored (gawd I hate that word but it fits here..) the negative influences their children were into, this horrible thing would not have happened. we as parents are not able to control or protect society, only our children. If everybody felt this way, their would not be so much negative influence in the world.

Your Ideas are great ones and you really present them in a passionate way Pangier, but I really beleive that they are unrealistic. Almost communistic for lack of a better word. A society that controls what influences us is not a free society. And I choose freedom. whether its what most of us percieve as moral freedom, or if I choose to worship Satan, (Which I do not!!) Freedom is freedom.

I will contiue to do what I have been doing as far as raising my children. But you have indeed made me think about the worlds state of mind and I do agree it could use some cleaning up! So I will do my part to try and make it a better place to live in. Thanks for telling us how you feel Pangier, its this reason that I love this cyber place. I long for more grown up content on this board. I hope that we can be friends and challenge each other on a regular basis. Who knows, maybe some of our ideas will rub off on one another!

Thanks again.

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quote:

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Nightcrawler Wrote:
A society that controls what influences us is not a free society.

---

I'm not saying that the government should control our influences. I'm saying that people should be responsible and be held responsible for what they say. Much like not being allowed to yell "Fire" in a crowded theatre.

Why is it so easy to see that concept and not this one?

In both cases there is harm involved. I admit that "intent" is the difference between the two situations and maybe a stumbling block for a lot of people. But if we understand that in both cases the outcome cannot be anything but bad - If we see and realize that by programming our children with promises of Immortal power and pleasures for killing a virgin is wrong and somebody should be held accountable for that, then we can put an end to it.

I do not believe freedom of speech is inhibited here. No more than demanding that someone not yell "fire" in a crowded theatre. And please do not give me talk of artistic expression because that does not fly with me. These actions at least would be a blatant disregard for responsibility. I’d like to put in force a law of responsibility upon actions of this sort just as the law of not yelling “fire” in a crowded theatre.

quote:

---

Nightcrawler Wrote:
I think the lyrics of the Slayer song in question are indeed corrupt and just plain appauling

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I’m actually worried about the fact that you say that you find the lyrical content of that Slayer song appalling and yet you do not stand up against it.. Your actions (or non actions) are no better than those people who close their blinds to ignore cries of “rape” from a girl outside a window. If it does not affect you directly, it’s not of your concern right?

quote:

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Nightcrawler Wrote:
But there are warning labels on CD's that warn of explicit language and themes

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Let’s be realistic and honest here. The warning labels do little but hype the product inside. Sure some parents take them seriously but the truth is that the labeling system is governed and controlled by the record companies. It’s quite useless. So I don’t buy the excuse of warning labels are the band’s excuse for case dismissal.

Nightcrawler, I’m sure you’ve let your kids listen to songs contained in CD's that had warning labels on them because the content (although a bit rough around the edges) was not a big deal. You knew your kids could handle it. A few swear words here and there? No biggie right? What’s the difference between one warning label and another? They’re all the same.. ”Explicit Lyrics Inside” If Billy down the street can listen to an album with explicit lyrics, why can’t my child? Looks the same to any parent. But we know the difference is quite to the contrary between what is on a Slayer album and what is on a typical metal album with swear words..

So the only step would be to sift through each and every thing our children are in contact with to make sure they are what we want them to be influenced by. That’s ludicrous!!. We all know that cannot be done.. With the corporations wanting to make more money they’ve raised the cost of living to where most families have to have both parents working. This is a critical stab to our moral society. (Umm.. That’s another one of my beefs but for now I’ll spare you that viewpoint )..

Teaching your children and giving them the right tools is paramount in child development. Leaving them in a room full of hate and murder should be the choice of the parent as well.

I think it’s apparent that we need a different approach. You’re right when you said “...we have pushed the boundries of this (freedom of speech) right for hundreds of years”. I personally think it’s time for some common sense. I say hold these people accountable for their actions of influence just like Charles Manson was. If we do not, it will just get worse. More will die and this needs not be.

The band Slayer is in many ways telling our children that it is ok to murder for immortal power and pleasure. Our children listen to these words over and over again programming themselves for the destruction of others. I’ll admit that this does not happen for each and every listener. But I think I’ve proven that these messages are set in a very particular programming nature.

In a day and age where we say people should be held accountable for their actions, this is a demand people should be making of one another. Dontcha think?

quote:

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Nightcrawler Wrote:
I realize the world as we know it is going right down the perverbial toilet

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You said it yourself..

It could have easily been your child killed. Those warning labels do nothing for a grieving parent.

If it has not already, in the long run this situation you're defending WILL affect you. As a society member, I believe everyone should get involved and voice their opinion to change to this situation rather than sit at home with your blinds closed.. Personally my window is wide open and I’ve got a small Hubbell telescope on my balcony

I know I’m hitting all of you with some very unique viewpoints. I’ve appreciated your honest objections. I do believe many of you are being honest with yourselves and not just being a puppet mocking what others have said.

Thank you,

-Pangier

[ 25 August 2001: Message edited by: Pangier ]

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